I need a new car, and I really want to go full electric. I’m wondering if anyone regrets buying one? What are the downsides?
Yeah, I bought a Tesla and now regret it because Elon is a dipshit.
That said, I’ve gone over 38,000 miles for less than $900 in electricity. I haven’t had to deal with oil changes or any other maintenance items other than tire rotations and tire replacement (the latter was of my own accord they actually said I didn’t need to yet, at the time).
I recently did a nearly 4hr trip with no need to charge on the way, and at my destination basically filled back up in something like 25 minutes while checking in to my hotel. So, no range anxiety for me.
The ride is nice, the features are helpful to me, and I have had no other issues with the vehicle.
So if it weren’t for Elon I’d love it. I still like it, but I just hate being seen in it now. It’s paid off so the financial cost of getting some other EV doesn’t make a ton of sense right now, so I guess I’ll just drive it until it dies…which at this rate might be a long-ass time.
I read somewhere that people have bumpersticks and stuff that say things like “I got the car before he went crazy” or “if I knew him then, I wouldn’t have bought it”
I’m not a huge fan of bumper stickers, but I might make an exception for this 🤔
Same boat here. I bought mine back when Elon was just “juvenile weirdo who makes dick jokes and smoked weed with Joe Rogan”. Best car I’ve ever owned hands down, no intention to buy anything Elon is selling ever again.
My biggest non-Elon complaint is the lack of Vehicle to Load. That is such an amazingly useful feature that’s ONLY AVAILABLE on the garbage cybertruck.
Isn’t the Cybertruck pretty bad in that regard as well for its size?
I don’t know, but I certainly wouldn’t be surprised.
This is what I’ll now show to lemmy when they again run in their denial circles about tesla being a bad car, or the company going bankrupt soon.
I like the electric part.
What I don’t like is that it’s a steaming heap of spy-ware on wheels with no opt-out ability.
Which may lead to more expensive insurance depending on your driving style, or could be abused for even more nefarious reasons.
That’s not limited to EVs, though. Most modern cars have the same antifeatures.
True, but I have an old ICE that I can keep running for a while. The question is should I spend more than it is worth on maintenance?
A lot of the ice ones can still be bypassed, at least. I dunno if it’s so easy all the all electric tire chewers.
The spyware you are mentioning is in gas cars too. It isn’t exclusive to EVs it is a problem with all new cars.
You’d be hard pressed to find any modern car that isn’t doing that.
deleted by creator
Whoa really? How did you figure it out? I’d love to do that with my car, even if it’s a pain.
I disabled the OnStar unit on mine and don’t use any of it’s associated apps.
Make sure that the car matches your expectations.
Don’t trust their range claims, most of the time they are exaggerated and only able to get that range on a perfect day doing constant 45mph without hills.
Do you have a reliable place to charge it? If you don’t have a personal parking place, and cannot install a charger at said place, trusting you have the range you need gets difficult, and expensive. As you have to rely on public chargers that are not very reliable, and worse for battery longevity (level 3 chargers)
Speaking of range. What range do you actually NEED? My opinion is the minimum range should be double the normal daily commute, as most level 2 chargers can add ~18 miles/he charging (overnight charge means 144 miles charge). Double your commute gives you a buffer for the heater, or the grocery run after work. For most people this is only 80 miles… which almost every electric only car can do without issues.
Is the cost worth the vehicle? Buying new is expensive, buying used can be risky. Do your research thoroughly and you’ll be able to decide what fits what you NEED (and that answer may easily be a used ICE vehicle instead)
I’ve had a full electric vehicle for 5+ years now as my daily. But I have always had a personal parking place, with a level 2 charger. I consider electric only to be a commuter car at best. It’s not going to be able to do a road trip. And depending on the car and the commute may even not be able to do a grocery run after work some days. If you have another car that is ICE that you can keep for those times, cool. Or if you are ok with planning, and rent a car when you want to do a road trip, great.
Personally I suggest a plug in hybrid for anyone who can only have one car, and is considering going electric. Prius prime, Chevy volt, Chrysler Pacifica are the ones that have enough range for a short commute, the rest are trying but just haven’t gotten there yet.
I consider electric only to be a commuter car at best. It’s not going to be able to do a road trip. And depending on the car and the commute may even not be able to do a grocery run after work some days.
I really wonder what kind of car you drive. Sounds like a Nissan Leaf or something.
I’ll share a couple of anecdotes regarding my experience with EVs:
My parents live on a farm in rural Maine. They are on their second Chevy Bolt (first was a lease, and they liked it so much that they upgraded to a later generation when the lease expired). It’s an inexpensive, no-frills EV that is their primary means of transportation. Living in the country, the shortest trip they take is likely to be at least 20 miles round-trip. In the past, I’ve borrowed that car for an overnight trip to Vermont. We made sure to charge it at home before the leaving, and drove to Vermont without needing to stop. I don’t recall the exact distance, but it was about 4 hours of driving through rolling hills. We charged it again in Vermont, and drove home the next day.
My partner and I have a 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 5 that we bought used for $28k. It’s all-wheel drive and has a battery warmer, both of which are helpful in cold climates. We do not have a charger at home. My wife’s commute is 20 miles round trip, and we are able to charge the car where she works, which we do roughly once a week. Although the car itself is capable of charging very quickly, the charger available to us is a low-power home charger, so it’s nice to be able to leave it plugged in during the full work day. We don’t hesitate to take this car on longer trips, especially if they take the interstate highway system or pass through major cities, where faster charging is always available.
When I bought the car, it was 150 miles away from my house. It was charged to 100% when I picked it up, and the car estimated 300 miles of range. We arrived at home with 50% charge remaining, so I’d say the 300 mile range was pretty accurate.
With this car and our charging habits, daily driving doesn’t really require any special thought or planning at all. For longer trips, anything less than a 150 mile round trip requires no more planning than “I should make sure to charge it within a day or so of the trip, if possible.” For a trip in the 250 mile range, I would definitely prefer to start fully charged, if possible, otherwise I’d want to explore charging options along the way. Only if going over that would I definitely feel the need to investigate charging options at my destination or along the route. A home charger would make things even simpler, but as it is it’s so low-stress that we don’t feel a lot of urgency to get one installed.
I recommend reading Tim Bray’s experiences with several years of EV-only ownership, including some long (1000+ mile) road trips in Canada. Here are a couple:
I live in the western us, where 150 miles isn’t all that far, and 200 between compatible fast chargers can be normal depending on where you’re driving.
In the end it’s all about everyone’s personal situation. Mine is, that battery is only a commuter because there’s no way I can afford the 400+ mile cars (nor am I interested in them anyways)
Yep, I live in the south and we will regularly (several times a year) drive 300 miles or more to visit the various families.
I’ve found that buying used is fine if the car is still under the manufacturers original warranty. Better yet if it has the premium/extended warranty package.
That’s basically the only warranty that you would care about (and actually want to extend), most other warranties have so many exclusions that they’re not worth it. And definitely ignore anyone calling you telling you that they’ve “been trying to reach you about your cars extended warranty.”
I’ve found the range is better than what they claim for stop and go city driving due to regen braking. But otherwise the range estimate is about as accurate as the miles per gallon estimate on a gas car.
It is definitely way cheaper to own than a gas car.
Double your commute gives you a buffer for the heater, or the grocery run after work. For most people this is only 80 miles… which almost every electric only car can do without issues.
Is the cost worth the vehicle?
This is where I get grumpy. I feel like that kind of range is a different category of vehicle, and it should be significantly cheaper than an ICEV, since it means I need to plan around the range.
I realize it’s the size of the battery pack, so it isn’t where most of the cost of the vehicle comes from, but still.
When it’s time to replace my current vehicle, I’ll probably go PHEV. But ideally public transit will be solved, so I won’t need to. 🤣
That kind of range is a different vehicle. My 500e I bought for 7k. It’s the perfect commuter.
Do you really NEED to be able to drive 300 miles every day? If so, battery isn’t likely for you. And if you don’t need to, why cry that it can’t?
if you don’t need to, why cry that it can’t?
Because I need to drive 300 miles every few months and a car I own that can do that is cheaper than a car that can’t and renting something that can for the few times I need it. Rental cars are expensive and most come with per mile charges on top of the daily rate.
It takes less than twenty minutes to charge enough to make that in any modern ev. Unless you’re filling up on gas before your trips anyway, you’re still gonna have to stop. The difference in time is negligible.
Gas cars fill even faster. Many EVs don’t charge at high speeds, and not all chargers support high speeds even if the car can. Evs do have the advantage of being fully charged before you leave, so trips that can be done on one charge never need to stop. However longer trips have issues.
Don’t forget that EV chargers are not nearly as common as gasoline. It is rare that someone needs to plan gas stops on a trip, when the gauge gets down to 1/4 you stop at the next town is the rule most people use (there is variation, those who use 1/8 as the rule sometimes run out of gas, some use 1/2). For EV trips you still have to plan your charging stops, particularly if you are getting off the well traveled path - you can still make most trips but you better how the chargers are working when you get there
Not only that, as EVS get more popular those stations will get more saturated. Even with more stations that means longer waits. Imagine a line for gas where it takes 5 total minutes to fill, if that. Now imagine that line with 20+ minute EV charging, per vehicle.
Im not against EVS but there are drawbacks. Acting like there aren’t isn’t doing Anyone any good.
Quite frankly I wish they’d just spend money on public transit.
One thing to keep in mind is that you don’t need the infrastructure of a gas station to have an EV charging station. My wife borrowed my car the other day and topped up at an apartment block. Only one place I went to could be charitably called a gas station, the rest were car dealerships and malls. But I’m also fortunate enough to be able to use an L1 charger at home and work so I tend not to use any.
Not even 20 minutes. If you are doing 300 miles, you probably only need to sit on the charger for maybe an extra 100 miles of charge. That is maybe 5-10 minutes.
Or if you get something like the Equinox EV, you may not have to charge during that trip at all.
My 500e I bought for 7k
A vehicle that can do a daily commute for 7k would be perfect. If you’re talking about the Fiat 500e, it’s 34k in my region. The cheapest used I can see is 22k.
Do you really NEED to be able to drive 300 miles every day? If so, battery isn’t likely for you. And if you don’t need to, why cry that it can’t?
This comes across as hostile.
My complaint is price points. When I get reduced range, I feel like I should pay less. An EV with a range of 120km in the winter for 7k would be amazing. It’d be a decent deal up until 15k. After that, the apparent value drops off. Like I said in my post, a PHEV feels like better value.
Yup I agree for most people the phev is much more logical. Though the complexity comes with lessened reliability and more costly repairs.
I also agree that the low mile capable ev are a bit over priced. I bought the 500e with 20k miles. It has 65k now and I could probably sell it for the same 7k I bought it for.
If you buy a PHEV be prepared for the cost of a gas car and an EV combined
Spot on. Another thing to consider is weather. EVs perform worse in cold weather - lower ranger and slower charging. Some manufacturers are worse than others. Preconditioning while plugged in is super helpful in below freezing temperatures and use the heated seats and heated steering wheel instead of climate control if you can.
Just needs some research if you live somewhere where below freezing temperatures occur at times in a year. Absolutely not a reason to avoid EVs altogether, just know the limitations, what to expect, and how to best mitigate some of the limitations.
as most level 2 chargers can add ~18 miles/he charging (overnight charge means 144 miles charge).
Level 2 EVSEs (the charger is actually in the car) have a wide cross-section of power delivery. Portable units are usually limited to ~20 amps and will do this level of charge. Installed units with a sufficient circuit can charge at a rate 40 - 60 miles / hour. They are also considerably more expensive and should be installed by an electrician (adding more cost).
For the record, Level 1 EVSE’s (that plug into a US 110v outlet) only do 3 - 5 miles/hour. Important to know for US renters who might not be able to get a 220v circuit to their parking spot.
Teslas are exaggerated, the rest of the market is dead on for range estimates. EVs are great for road trips, you have to stop for bathroom breaks anyway. L1 chargers at home are fine and L2 chargers get you through every day perfectly fine. You only really need L3 for road trips.
Mine is not a Tesla, and its range is exaggerated… Or at least its range has a hidden asterisk that would read “under ideal conditions with a gentle driving style.” It self-adjusts based on my recent driving history, and I mostly don’t let the battery get low enough that I have to care about how precise it is… But it definitely skews heavily optimistic, especially when I first bought the car. It’s roughly the same in that regard as a Tesla is, according to the Tesla drivers I know.
Is the cost worth the vehicle? Buying new is expensive, buying used can be risky. Do your research thoroughly and you’ll be able to decide what fits what you NEED (and that answer may easily be a used ICE vehicle instead)
This is one of the rare cases where, at least for right now, leasing a new vehicle may make more sense financially than purchasing outright. For one thing, many more cars are eligible for the $7500 federal tax rebate when leased instead of purchased. For another, used electric vehicles seem to lose their value a lot more than ICE vehicles. This is a combination of newer, better cars being released at lower prices than previous vehicles and consumers being unsure of the capacities of older battery packs. The latter is seeming to be less of an issue than feared based on preliminary data, but we really only have long-term results for a few models. The former is much more volatile from the market, though. Elon Musk single-handedly tanked used car values when he dropped prices on model 3 and Y vehicles, and it happens every time they cut prices, but Tesla is not the only electric manufacturer that’s been cutting prices on new cars. While manufacturers would love to sell for high prices, the reality is they need a larger market to be profitable from economies of scale, so as they reduce costs there’s been a general trend to cut prices too, either by cutting prices on existing models or introducing new, less-expensive models.
All of that is to say, it looks like the leasing companies aren’t factoring in enough depreciation on current leases. A lease is essentially you paying for the depreciation of the car. If you’re paying for a $50,000 car to be worth $35,00 in two years but it actually ends up being worth $25,000 in that time you’ve come out ahead, especially compared to if you bought it and tried to sell it yourself.
deleted by creator
Not "too high"technically. But does put more load on the battery, causing more dendritic growth in the cells.
Battery temperature management seems to be a key limiting factor.
At least a few years ago, and likely still, the reasons and conditions under which the barrier layers in the battery degrade were not super well understood. Heat seems to be a key contributing factor and charging a battery quickly warms up the battery and I suppose not fully evenly within a cell. Not knowing the complete extent of this makes the early LEAF’s lack of actively cooled battery a reasonable choice. Before that, the batteries of earliest Prius cars held up way longer than expected.
Like with a phone: heat and cold is not super awesome for the battery. It seems heat is especially bad for longevity.
Its not to high or bad for them, it’s more like it just pushes the system to its max over and over. They are designed for fast charging.
Its like stretching a rubber band that can go to 3ft over and over. Its part of its design, but it will cause more wear and tear then just stretching it a few inches.
You’re saying it’s not too high or bad for them then you say it will cause more wear and tear. Which do you mean?
It’s within specification, but it isn’t optimal.
If you’re pushing for the lowest range, lowest cost EV that covers your daily needs, it will be a commuter-only car.
This wall of text is like an EV prophylactic
Downsides: Have to go to a gas station to find a squeegee to clean the windows.
Upsides: You have no other reason to go to a gas station.
Sometimes you need to check your tire pressure, too.
The general reduction in scheduled maintenance requirements is really wonderful.
My EV has onboard pressure monitoring. And came with a little electric tire pump.
Too bad if you buy one with a long enough range to completely replace the need to also own an ice vehicle you weigh so much that you have to buy more expensive tires and still need to replace those more often.
I bought my very own gas station squeegee at a car parts store . Life-changing events.
I better get mine, soon.
What about for gas station sushi?
Good name for a band.
Heh. Now that’s a party.
And then, a porcelain party.
Recharge the car when you’re away from home?
Most large gas stations I’ve been to have chargers now.
Good to know. I do more road trips now that I’m not driving an ICE car. Plugshare does list those stations. I have a certain antipathy for ‘petrol’ companies. Something to do with the demise of the human species, to which I’m reasonably concerned about.
deleted by creator
LoL. Lavender Lad, get on your bike and ride off that anger. It’s not harming anyone apart from yourself.
Speaking of doing research, thoughts?
https://www.npr.org/2024/09/23/nx-s1-5074064/ev-gas-cars-environment-skepticism
I own 2 Teslas and an electric lawnmower since 2018 and I live in the Arctic Chicago area. No regrets besides Elon turning out to be a shitlord.
I am exactly you except I live in the south.
Enjoy the nice weather then, unless you’re so far south your life is at risk… In which case please don’t store your lithium batteries where you store your standing water.
I’m in New England and have had a Tesla for 3 years now. Two years ago we drove it down to South Carolina & back. No issues at all thanks to their supercharger network.
I’ve gone from the Chevy Volt, to the Bolt, to a Polestar 2, to a Ford Mach E. 7 years in EVs, around 100k miles, with no regrets and no intention of going back to ICE.
I’m not even sure what the downsides are. Maybe longer trips require a tiny bit more planning? The infotainment systems do all the work though, telling me where to stop and how long to charge.
Dang 4 cars in 7 years?
Yeah that’s insanely wasteful
I mean, presumably he isn’t just taking them to the junkyard… Someone out there is probably still driving those cars
And leasing is a thing
Yep and someone got to buy a lightly used EV
I recently bought a used Nissan Leaf. No regrets so far, hoping the battery needs to be replaced before my warranty expires. There’s a good chance…
Probably leasing. Which is blowing a lot of money, but also means he isn’t buying an $80,000 car that won’t be worth hardly anything after it hits 100k miles, because more and more people in the used markets are figuring out when an out of warranty battery goes bad it can cost you $15,000 to $25,000 extra to replace a battery.
Probably. I had a neighbor that leased an Acura yearly. Always got a different vehicle but always in white.
Always white? How damned boring.
Boring yes but easier to see, involved in proportionally fewer accidents, surface scratches are harder to see, remains cooler when parked outside, much easier to resell, always available, doesn’t attract attention, and the base white is normally cheaper…
I completely get it for a lease car. It’s a work vehicle, not a passion project.
People get so weird and judgey
I haven’t regretted it. Did a road trip across the country. Takes more planning because chargers are more sparse than gas stations, but totally doable. Having a place to charge is a must. I lived in an apartment complex without charging and REALLY had to plan my charging sessions or it could get stuck in the parking garage.
Yeah, I stayed with my parents for a few months while I was house hunting and being limited to Level 1 charging was challenging. I couldn’t recover a full commute’s worth of charge overnight and would start each day with progressively less charge, so I’d have to swing by a L3 charger once a week or so. Still cheaper than gas though.
I have not regretted it. Bought a second EV for my family as well. Most of my extended family have also bought EVs and all had positive experiences. I don’t know anyone who has regretted it.
Privacy and security concerns, most of them are like big tech on wheels. See Telsa and others spying on users during intimate moments. Also most have major security vulnerabilities.
This is the case with all newer cars. If you’re avoiding EVs for privacy then the same reason applies to any car with OnStar, OTA updates, apps for your phone (remote start, locate, etc.) Or pretty much any car made in the last 10 years or more.
I definitely appreciate wanting to protect your privacy and will readily acknowledge that any EV will make that a problem. But almost every car made since the Tesla Roadster has the same problems. Now, if we could get our respective governments to pass laws stopping this BS, that would be really nice.
My Hyundai Ioniq 5 is my favorite car ever! We’ve taken it on two long road trips with very few issues. The biggest issue was one charging station in a rural area had a 2 hr wait to use it. But we typically only take 15-20 mins to charge from 10%-80% on road trips.
Not sure where the top commenter is getting their range issues from. Our level 2 charger at home adds ~250 miles of range in 4 hours. In hindsight probably would have gone a cheaper route of a simple exterior 240V outlet on the wall and a compatible cord to save a few hundred dollars.
Otherwise there’s very minimal maintenance and the car is super easy/fun to drive. Love the 1-pedal driving mode after a short learning period, it’s so responsive that the car feels like it reads my mind on where I want to go/how far to be behind the next car.
Edit: the 2025 Ioniq 5 models are coming with the Tesla charging port, so that will open up a lot more charging stations!
I’m really intrigued by the Ioniq. It isn’t cheap, but it looks great.
Same boat as the other reply, I really like the look and features of the Ioniq. How much space do you have in the boot and in the interior in general?
There is plenty of space for passengers and storage. We traded in a Ford Fusion sedan and the Ioniq 5 has much more storage space than that did. One of the long road trips I mentioned was a camping trip. We were able to bring two big tote bins, a big cooler, a canopy tent for the picnic table, folding chairs, sleeping bags, air mattresses, extra blankets, and two dogs on the back seat. As a bonus, we got an adapter that plugs into the charging port and can power a hotplate for boiling water faster than a camp fire (also serves as back up power for my house if the power goes out, can run an extension cord down to the freezer). There is a small frunk, we mostly use that for emergency supplies.
I’m above average height and can fully extend my legs in both front seats and never have issues with head clearance. I like the space between the two front seats as well being mostly open concept as opposed to the closed spaces in Teslas. Feels spacious for every day driving and on road trips can fit a soft sided cooler as well as a food bag.
I love mine, Chevy bolt. The biggest downside is that you need to plan road trips more carefully with them, and road trips will just take longer. Once you accept that, it’s actually kind of nice to periodically take 20-30 minute breaks while on a trip.
These problems are greatly alleviated if you also have a fossil fuel car. My partner has a gas car, so if we’re just going for a weekend or there aren’t good charging options, we just take the gas car so we don’t have to worry about charging.
I think EV cars are mature enough. A lot of colleague have EVs, Tesla 3, Bolt, Ioniq 5, Soul EV, etc. and no-one regret it.
Me I don’t need one because I WFH and do maybe 4000 miles (6000km) per year, so buying a 60k$ EV compared to a 30k$ ICE does not make sense, for money.
If your #1 priority is to save the planet and not pollute and you have the money, so of course go for it.
Your second paragraph is why I haven’t pulled the trigger yet. I don’t WFH, but my commute is only about 10 miles round trip and most of my errands are done within that same area. My Toyota is 12 years old and only has ~80k miles on it, so it just doesn’t make sense to switch at this point.
That said, I’m casually looking for a new job and my commute would go up dramatically for a lot of options in my field, so I haven’t eliminated the possibility.
Not that buying a whole different car is always financially smart, but you have an ideal setup for getting a cheaper, often lower range EV.
Oh yeah, my next car is definitely going to be an EV, regardless, but it does seem silly to spend the money when A) I drive so little and B) I still have student loans I’m trying to clear out in the next year or so. I’m also secretly hoping that in the meantime Toyota will say, “hey here’s a RAV4 that’s identical to your current one except it’s electric!” because I reaaaally love my car and haven’t found anything to take it’s blocky little place in my heart yet.
If your #1 priority is to save the planet and not pollute and you have the money, so of course go for it.
In the pollution case, it’s better to keep a viable used ICE car running than to go buy a new EV. But that’s completely ignoring the economics of it. Battery is cheap once purchased. And ICE has more maintenance and repair costs.
Better yet get a bike (or ebike) which is much less pollution and improves your health.
i have an e-assist bike and my 1999 ICE little honda and it works out very well.
i cycle into the city when i can. faster, exercise, dont have to pay to park (which is 4 eur an hour)
Ah yes, biking two hours each way when I’m summoned into the office. Something I definitely would get up at 4AM to do.
Either your drive to the office is unreasonably long, or you are driving much faster than legal. For most roads the legal speed is not that much slower than a bike can go - and you spend a lot of time sitting at stop lights. Which to say an ebike is a reasonable option for a lot of people who refuse to even consider it. Though I don’t know your personal situation and so I cannot be sure. (and often the roads you would have to drive on are not safe for bikes which is a real problem)
It’s a 18 minute drive, and it’s alllll highway. When I put it into Maps and choose bike, it’s gonna be a couple hours. I’m pretty much going straight there on highways at 60-70MPH.
I have a bike and LOVE riding, but it’s impossible for me to sub my car out for one. Plus my parents are a 30min straight shot on highways, and my partner’s parents are 25 minutes… the other direction.
For basically everything I need to go to other than the corner store, parks, or the grocery shop, we gotta drive. Actually, we even have to drive to the grocery shop that’s a few minutes’ walk away, because there’s no chance we’re going to be able to bring all of the stuff we usually get on a bike. 35lbs of cat litter, a big box and big bag of cat food, a couple packs of La Croixeses, and 5-8 bags, gotta do car.
I would absolutely do the same as you, but I think I’ve seen pictures of ebikes with that exact load. It looks insane, but good for them!
An ebike would have no problem with 20mph and so the trip would be an hour. I agree too much but also your speeds are unusual.
You should get a wagon for grocery shopping they work well for that type of trip.
I work remotely too so a new car is an unnecessary expense. Instead a purchased a different kind of EV: an electric bike!*
*This is a lie I’ve bought four of them send help
I got by brother to buy an ebike, then get a 100% remote job so he never rides it and give me the ebike he doesn’t use. Do we balance each other out?
I’ve been wanting a plug-in hybrid, where you’re fully electric under ~40mi of daily travel, and if you exceed it switches to gas for backup. RAV4 prime has been my dream car lately…
I have a 10 year old Chevy Volt. 95% of our households driving is on the 38 miles of battery range. Oil changes every 2 years.
I haven’t regretted it. Though if you were to do consistent long drives, and only have one car, I might suggest checking out PHEVs.
How do you feel about claims that PHEVs are combining the initial cost of an EV with the repair costs of ICE?
I’m also considering getting a full electric car, but have a little range anxiety mixed with a general feeling that the improvements over the next couple years will make current electric cars obsolete, so I am following along with this thread!
improvements over the next couple years will make current electric cars obsolete
This is my problem with any new car. Practically every new car (even ICEVs) is just a smart phone on wheels now. It’s not like in the ‘90s - ‘00s when you could still legit buy a car from the ‘70s and daily drive it and repair it in your own drive way for cheap (most people in the 50s - 80s were capable of basic tune ups, etc).
My concern is that at some point the parts won’t be made anymore. Or if the LCD command console gets cracked or something your car’s totaled. I mean, people used to own cars for at least ten years, twenty years wasn’t uncommon. Do you think a 2025 XYZ is going to be on the road in ten years- twenty years? What’s the resale value on that / who’s going to buy a twenty year old phone on wheels?
As much as people believe EVs are better for the environment, aren’t they increasing the rate at which a vehicle ends up in landfill? I hope recycling is part of the car’s lifecycle.
At the same time though, I have to acknowledge that, without an ICE, EVs have far fewer points of failure. There’s a potential for them to be on the road much longer. I just don’t see that happening due to consumer demand. Even if you’re able to update the software and swap out worn out parts, is that enough to keep the car on the road as long as or longer than an ICEV? What happens when technology changes and they find better batteries or charging methods? How much do you have to invest in the phone on wheels to keep it on the road?
This is my problem with any new car. Practically every new car (even ICEVs) is just a smart phone on wheels now. It’s not like in the ‘90s - ‘00s when you could still legit buy a car from the ‘70s and daily drive it and repair it in your own drive way for cheap (most people in the 50s - 80s were capable of basic tune ups, etc).
Remember cars from the 70s and 80s were considered “clunkers” at 100k miles. Today that number is 200k miles generally.
My concern is that at some point the parts won’t be made anymore. Or if the LCD command console gets cracked or something your car’s totaled.
Thats true of all modern cars, not just EVs. That ICE car is full of computers named things like “Engine Control Module” etc. Its already happening where they are dying and a car is essentially totaled.
I mean, people used to own cars for at least ten years, twenty years wasn’t uncommon.
Twenty years wasn’t uncommon? For collectors cars or sunday drivers maybe. There were extraordinarily few 20 year old Plymonth Reliants on the roads in 2001.
Do you think a 2025 XYZ is going to be on the road in ten years- twenty years? What’s the resale value on that / who’s going to buy a twenty year old phone on wheels?
Even though there were other EVs before it, the Tesla Model S was the first mainstream EV that most would consider. You don’t have to wonder if they’re on the road. You can do used car searches for 2013 (11 years old!) and find them for sale.
As much as people believe EVs are better for the environment, aren’t they increasing the rate at which a vehicle ends up in landfill?
No. Interestingly one of the challenges of setting up recycling facilities for EV batteries that there simply aren’t enough EVs being taken off the road with their batteries junked to create enough feedstock to justify the facilities.
If anything, the cut corners and non-reparibilty of the many common ICE vehicles is generating far larger waste. Try to buy a rebuilt Hyundai Sonata ICE engine for a car built in the last 10 years. You will have a hard time because they aren’t very servicable and they break often. Lack of replacement engines means many cars that look amazing are headed to the scrapper because there’s no way to put them back on the road again.
At the same time though, I have to acknowledge that, without an ICE, EVs have far fewer points of failure. There’s a potential for them to be on the road much longer. I just don’t see that happening due to consumer demand.
“Electric cars accounted for around 18% of all cars sold in 2023, up from 14% in 2022 and only 2% 5 years earlier, in 2018.” source
Nearly 1 in every 5 new cars sold last year were EVs.
Gasoline consumption for vehicles is down 4.4% due to those drivers now driving EVs and not buying gasoline anymore source
Demand of EVs seems to be pretty decent.
People also just drive a lot more today than 40 years ago, in part, because jobs and shopping are further away (it’s gone down since COVID due to more WFH). A car with 100K miles on it was an old car. Now it’s not unheard of for people to put that kind of mileage on their car in under five years. I have no argument that vehicles are much more well built today.
As I said in another comment, I’m not arguing that cars are more capable of being on the road, just that I don’t believe people are going to choose to drive a ten to twenty year old car in 2035 - 2045 as much as they had fifty years prior. You could put less than $1,000 into a 100k mile car in the 90s and expect to get another 50k+ out of it. At least, I can confirm that that’s what I did with my 1976 Ford Elite and later my 1980 Camaro.
Moreover, there’s nothing aside from the maintenance of the vehicle and maybe improved gas mileage that would deter anyone from choosing to drive an older vehicle. There are far more reasons today to not choose a ten year old car than there were 30-40 years ago.
My point is about consumer choice and the advancements of technology. Will people choose to drive vehicles that aren’t compatible with future technology.
People also just drive a lot more today than 40 years ago, in part, because jobs and shopping are further away (it’s gone down since COVID due to more WFH). A car with 100K miles on it was an old car. Now it’s not unheard of for people to put that kind of mileage on their car in under five years. I have no argument that vehicles are much more well built today.
Well built for specific uses, but not necessarily well built to ensure lots of them are on the roads decades after their release.
As I said in another comment, I’m not arguing that cars are more capable of being on the road, just that I don’t believe people are going to choose to drive a ten to twenty year old car in 2035 - 2045 as much as they had fifty years prior.
I partially agree with but for different reasons that you’re stating.
You could put less than $1,000 into a 100k mile car in the 90s and expect to get another 50k+ out of it. At least, I can confirm that that’s what I did with my 1976 Ford Elite and later my 1980 Camaro.
That 1980 Camaro was a far simpler car that modern cars. Simple generally means more repairable, but that comes at other costs. Economics have shifted this behavior in western society. In 1980 labor was cheap and simple machines meant lower skilled workers could accomplish the work too. Meaning when your 1980s Camaro was slipping out of gear it made sense to take your Camero to a transmission shop (do those even still exist now?) and have them do a full teardown of your transmission and get the synchros replaced. Today it is almost unheard of to get transmission work done and instead your Auto Technician will simply replace the entire transmission if any problem is occurring inside with a synchro.
Further, that Auto Tech will also be part Electronic Technician with knowledge of hydraulics, air emissions, HVAC, and more. That makes for a much more expensive labor per hour charge.
Moreover, there’s nothing aside from the maintenance of the vehicle and maybe improved gas mileage that would deter anyone from choosing to drive an older vehicle. There are far more reasons today to not choose a ten year old car than there were 30-40 years ago.
Passenger safety and crash survivability has improved dramatically from cars 30-40 years old.
Automotive emissions were in their infancy 40 years ago, which is a partial cause for the climate change we live with today.
My point is about consumer choice and the advancements of technology. Will people choose to drive vehicles that aren’t compatible with future technology.
I’ve driven old cars. Things start to break that don’t break on even moderately old cars. Rubber seals on all kinds of things deteriorate. Rust claims the structural integrity. Long mechanical wear has you doing repair after repair always bracing for the next expensive thing. Its no panacea .
As much as people believe EVs are better for the environment, aren’t they increasing the rate at which a vehicle ends up in landfill? I hope recycling is part of the car’s lifecycle.
EOL has been part of the calculations I’ve seen. No car is better than an EV, but that is limiting.
A modern car is far more reliable than anything from the 1970s or before. Sure you could repair those older cars, but also you had to repair those older cars. I’m old enough to remember people bragging about getting 100k miles on a car - they had to check the oil every day, and most days add more. Today a ICE will go 300k miles with minimal maintenance, checking oil is not a common thing for people to do.
I’m not arguing that. My argument is actually because cars are far more reliable, doesn’t that decrease their resale value as more and more modern convinces are added to newer cars?
You’ve got a window of less than ten years on a modern car where then the technology in it is so old that few people would consider purchasing it to keep it for another five - ten years.
For example, my mom just bought a '24 Subaru with a huge touch screen in it. Will it keep working in ten years? Probably. Will anyone want to buy that phone on wheels in ten years? Not likely. I just bought a 2013 Mini Cooper. It “has bluetooth” but it’s strictly for (shitty sounding) phone calls and not audio streaming. I’m one of few people who’s okay with this because I’ll only drive 1500 miles a year.
Whereas a 25 year old car in 1998 was, aside from your accurate claim about reliability, perfectly fine as a daily driver. If you can find one and are capable of proper maintenance, you could still drive a 1960s car today. But because modern consumer tastes expect advancements in vehicles the same as they expect them in phones, I just don’t see used cars living as long as older cars have.
So, it’s not so much about the ability for a vehicle to remain on the road but consumer choice.
1500 miles a year… I do that in two weeks.
I absolutely would drive an ev if I could afford it, but I have a few years to go before my current car is worth a trade… and where I live I have no ability to charge at home, which is the one thing that would save me a lot of money.
Personally the newer vehicles have been going more and more into drm on all their things. Even ICE vehicles have been doing it. Locking the consumer into their walled garden parts and service. And when they erroneously decide that your car doesn’t make enough profit, they tell you too bad, your 3yr old car isn’t supported, you should buy a new one.
Battery technology itself isn’t going to have a huge breakthrough reach the electric vehicle consumer in the next 5 years. They’d already have to have viable proof of concept to do that, and nobody has.
Look for a used one now. The prices are low enough that you’ll be able to get a good one for a low enough price that you may not feel bad if you decide to upgrade in 2 or 3 years.
ICE engines improve all the time too. Are you similarly hesitant to buy a car with one?
Sort of. ICE engines are much more mature, and the improvements happen in much smaller increments. There were plenty of ICE cars 30 years that could get 30 mpg, just like there are today. Whereas with EVs, we’re talking about potentially extending range and charging speeds by 50% or more.
That seems like it would only be a concern for people that need the new thing all the time, which is an expansive proposition when it comes to cars.
As long as the batteries and drivetrain hold up, the people looking to spend 10-20k on their commuter rather than 40-70k will accept things that are out of date.
EVs are older than ICE cars.
The market definitely went ICE for decades, but how mature is mature enough for you?
EVs are older, sure, but they were in suspended animation for a long time.
As to the question of how mature is mature enough, that depends. In my case, as an EV owner, I think they are mature enough now. However, the fact that major developments in range, efficiency, charging speed, etc are happening regularly in the EV space reflects a certain immaturity. The technology clearly has not yet stabilized, and that may be concerning for people coming from an ICE background.
It’s definitely a different line for everyone, which is why I asked them to self-evaluate to challenge their own thoughts about it.
It could be they’re ready when a standard battery is 300+ miles with a half hour charge up. Could be 500+ with 10 minutes to charge, etc. until we get to a place where it’s probably far outside our lifetime and it’s suddenly a hard no to EVs and they may have had no idea.
I just chafe a bit at vague “not yet” with no clear goal. It’s the bread and butter of bad faith arguments against EVs and I don’t like to see it spread, intentionally or not.
