Unpopular opinion: if you require disenfranchised voters to stave off a fascist dictatorship then you’re already a failed state and are only kicking the can down the road.
There are probably a lot of people you love who require healthcare who are depending on that can being kicked further down the road until you have an alternative.
I personally think we can support Palestine without throwing our trans and gay populations, our immigrants, and our leftists to the wolves.
That’s the thing. We aren’t getting an alternative. We’re getting fascism. Whether we slowly slide into it with the Democrats or speed run it with the Republicans we will have to deal with the issue.
obviously a slow slide gives people time to leave and it offers more chances for the fascist factions to cannibalize each other. From a strategic perspective you never go with the quick option unless you think you can win the fight quickly.
At this point I despair of winning this fight at all. As long as Amazon Prime Video keeps it’s ads short enough, most people aren’t even going to notice the cops turning ever more into a paramilitary force. The list of rights SCOTUS has broken for the cops during my lifetime is frankly amazing. Not one right from the 1st to the 8th is enforceable in our courts. You can’t even protest without getting beat by the police. That fact alone should have the entire country in the streets.
We’re already hemmed in, the alarms are already going off and the collective response is to just vote for the guy who lets the fascists organize for a few more years. We’re already fucked, the goose was cooked in 2020 and we couldn’t see it because Obama did actually try and none of us imagined Biden would just… not.
Ok, but like, no.
Convincing argument.
We’re already fucked
This one’s better?
then make do with what you’ve got
No. This isn’t what we have, this is what the wealthy elite have. We’re not making do, we’re drowning. We’ve been drowning. But everyone ignored the warnings so here we are.
humans have been making do with much less than what you have for hundreds of thousands of years. making do also does not necessarily exclude political action
That’s right up there with, “better clean that plate, there’s starving kids in China!”
It’s that very history you mention that tells me it’s time to stop supporting weak Democrats. Either we get someone strong enough to pull us back from the abyss or we’re already fucked. This story has played out time and again from the Roman Empire to Post Colonial Africa. The compromise guy is put in charge and the authoritarian runs him over.
And Trump will improve that how? We already know he’ll make everything else worse.
Oh he won’t. But neither will Biden.
Right. So maybe you should look at everything else they have done as president and realize there’s a lot more at stake in this election.
… so let’s just speedrun it?
years ago, i lived in a community where someone had spray-painted the dumpster. it said something like “tear it all down and start over.” i endorsed that at the time.
now i am way too invested in way too many people to see it go down like that.
Let’s not run it. Let’s march in the streets instead.
Honestly not sure the situation for immigrants is that much better under Biden. Especially with the immigration bill from earlier in the year they tried to pass and the It Could Happen Here episodes about the border conditions under Biden. At least during Trump’s term there were news reports and people were more active giving aid.
Really? Deporting adults and keeping their children in ICE detention centers only to physically and sexually abuse them is better? Trump was a monster to immigrants. We had nations around the world criticizing the crisis and crimes against humanity at our border.
https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/ice-detention-center-says-its-not-responsible
I’m glad Biden ended family separation and has increased electronic monitoring over detention. Unfortunately, tons of people are still in abusive privately run immigration prisons. Many are dying during border crossings. Plenty of kids who immigrated are laboring in meat packing plants.
Biden continues many of Trump’s awful policies, but because he does it in a quieter, more respectable tone he receives less backlash. The lack of support people get from us is stark and the abolish ICE movement has withering away.
Both these situations are bad. I think my point is less about the election and more that we collectively should do something about these conditions. Mutual aid, volunteer, harass a representative, just something.
You’re forgetting about the year and a half long open border policy after Biden repealed Title 42, while pressing Congress to do their job and enact immigration reform. The only reason he restricted immigration was after receiving pressure from sanctuary cities. The president shouldn’t be enacting Executive Orders to control the border. That is a direct result of the failure of Congress.
Same thing happened to Obama. The border crisis is a manufactured thing by Republicans.
You’re not wrong. I guess the question is now whether you’re ok with the consequences of not kicking it?
The don’t think that far ahead.
Pithy comments that undermine their own stated aims are their entire contribution to the human experience.
They’ll have plenty of opportunities for pithy comments when Trump helps eradicate Palestine and Ukraine while tailoring the US for straight, rich, white, Christian Americans.
And the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primary will have plenty of opportunities to claim there was nothing wrong with knowingly voting for a candidate they knew would be unpopular with people they were depending on in the general election.
The DNC has been a let down since Obama. Biden was only better than Trump in 2020, as he still is. That’s the only reason he won.
They don’t think that far ahead
“Everyone I disagree with is stupid and wrong”
I considered America a failed state 25 years ago, based on nothing but the last century of modern history, from textbooks — before 9/11, 20 years and trillions of dollars bombing the middle east to ((surrender)), the GFC, surveillance capitalism, citizens united, the rise of Trump and unadulterated fascism, etc, etc.
Guess what the last 25 years has taught me? A majority of humanity are entirely incapable of seeing beyond what’s directly and immediately in front of them! But sure… The people who saw this happening in slow motion, decades ago, are the problem! Whatever helps you sleep at night is all that matters.
Translation: Why fight becoming a dictatorship when dictatorship seems to be winning?
People acting like if Biden wins, Trump will magically disappear and another even more insane republican won’t immediately take his place and threaten democracy again.
I honestly think this is the closest to perfect time for the DNC to split and make a new party. They can easily start with at least 30-40 house members and maybe a few senators. The majority of young voters would probably opt to vote for them.
Suddenly they’d be forced to do coalitions to keep doing things, and republicans would lose voter base so fast they might even split themselves.
Here’s a take… it would be infinitely worse under the GOP. At least Biden and Blinken have attempted to cool tensions and persuade Bibi to stop. They have, at a minimum, delayed some violence.
The argument isn’t “don’t vote for biden” it’s “stop deflecting the harm your candidate is actively doing by pointing at someone else”. Why is that so hard to understand? The fact the democrats want to die on the hill of commiting genocide and squashing student protests against it is their own fault, no one elses.
This isn’t an election issue, since both parties agree on support for Israel. Stop making it an election issue
This is a Congress issue, go protest at the house, or offices of your congressman.
It’s an election issue if the people say it is. Otherwise we no longer live in a democracy.
Enjoy president Trump. See how he handles Palestine.
Enjoy engaging people in bad faith arguments.
“bad faith argument” the new buzz phrase to beat over the head of everyone who disagrees with you in 2024
No it really is a bad faith argument to try and defend Biden by mentioning Trump. It’s literally a whataboutism.
Now you’re catching on
Right I forgot I’m not allowed to have an opinion unless it’s spoon fed to me by one of the two major political parties…
No, you’re allowed an opinion, but you’re starting to realize your opinion means Jack shit in your system unless you have lobbyists with deep pockets. Don’t get mad at me bro, I didn’t create the system
Oh but you did. I did too, we all did. And if we don’t fix it you’ll be right.
Maga assholes are having a grand time twisting the knife in this wound trying to drive a wedge in the voting block. It’s clearly working.
The people who are drawing the line at genocide in Gaza are being disingenuous at best. Foreign policy is, believe it or not, far more complicated than people make it out to seem. Making every effort to de-escalate the conflict at the negotiating table comes before burning bridges with arguably our last and only stalwart ally in the middle east.
Not sending weapons to a genocidal regime is not complicated.
Why do you need an ally in the Middle East? America’s not in the Middle East right?
That’s the “complicated foreign policy” that OP is taking about. There are a ton of reasons to have allies all over the world, which surprisingly includes the Middle East. It could be for military, economic, informational, or other reasons.
Why do we need to sally out and defeat the enemy? The enemy isn’t inside the castle walls, right?
Are you really so naive that you can’t see value in making alliances with countries that don’t directly border your own?
True… but I think we would have had more representation, as democrats would try to score political points.
It would have felt like we had some representation fighting against this, rather then 2 parties agreeing on a genocide.
Democrats are speaking out though?
And getting called trump supporting russians when we do.
I believe they’re talking about Democrat electors, like Schumer and Bernie. No one here is against speaking out or protesting. The topic is voting. If people abstain, Trump will win. His unwavering base will make sure of that.
Also, you said you’re not a democrat. Which is it? Or do you just manipulate your stance to fit the narrative you’re selling?
Also, you said you’re not a democrat.
Oh cool. Where did I say that?
Is it in the same chunk of your imagination where you assume I support trump because I don’t love genocide like you do?
I thought you had written that you left the party years ago. My mistake. Also, accusing people of loving genocide is despicable and further discrediting to you. Of course I’m passionately against killing of any kind, especially when targeting a specific group.
I’m not defending Biden’s support of Israel. This post is about voting, and yes, I’m absolutely reluctantly voting for him to keep Trump from a second term. You are either completely ignorant to the implications of your comments or you are actively trying to get Trump into office.
Also, accusing people of loving genocide is despicable and further discrediting to you.
You didn’t care when you were accusing me of supporting trump and by extension genocide. So deal with it.
Of course I’m passionately against killing of any kind, especially when targeting a specific group.
But are happy to scream false accusations at anyone who isn’t willing to pretend that Biden’s support for genocide is acceptable.
I’m not defending Biden’s support of Israel.
Really? Because you acted like I was a single issue voter for just pointing out that single issue voters exist and that Biden needs to adapt.
Of course adaptation might involve dropping support for genocide, so I can see why that would make you angry.
This post is about voting, and yes, I’m absolutely reluctantly voting for him to keep Trump from a second term.
I very much doubt that there’s any reluctance involved, unless he drops his support for genocide.
You are either completely ignorant to the implications of your comments or you are actively trying to get Trump into office.
I’m trying to get Democrats to stop being the Other Genocide Party. Which bothers you.
Yeah, they’re speaking out against the protests. Biden even got in on it with his short speech recently finger wagging the student protests, in case you were wondering how much democrats care about acting against genocide.
Would you rather he ask about shooting the protestors?
Everyone knows trump is worse. The answer to hitler is not hitler-lite.
What is the answer? People are commenting like they can just abstain and everything will work out. I’m commenting as an anti-Trump voter. Provide a suggestion that isn’t whining about bad choices and I’ll listen.
The answer is for people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries to apologize for putting us in this position. Otherwise they’re just gonna do it again in 2028.
The answer is to continue to pressure democrats, known as “the good party”, to actually do good things they claim they want to do but refuse to actually do.
He called out elements of the student protest movement, not the movement as a whole.
Maybe if we policed the most unhelpful and destructive elements of the movement for ourselves, we wouldn’t be in this situation.
He talked about these elements as if they were the entirety of the movement. It doesn’t matter how much you police the movement, any jackass can make the movement look bad with the help of biden and the media pretending like they represent the movement.
The Columbia divestment spokesperson said they had no involvement with the group which took over Hamlin Hall, but stood in solidarity with them.
When the movement as a whole stands in solidarity with those who are weakening the movement, maybe Biden has a point.
You’re getting all the representation you can get from Senate and House Democrats. Schumer spoke against this in January. Bernie repeated last month, and so on. Congress is now divided on this as a partisan issue, but ignorance puts it all on the president, whose office has been in support of Israel in this conflict since it began under Reagan. A Republican in office would only escalate this into a war with Iran after Palestine is eradicated.
Going around Congress to ship weapons to Israel flies in the face of the helpless president narrative you’re trying to paint here.
Source on congressional evasion? The last sale of arms was completed months ago and only supplied last month. The next shipment is currently on hold.
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/05/israel-us-ammunition-shipment-hold
I didn’t see that. Thank you for the link. That was in December, before Netanyahu began indiscriminately killing Palestinians in Gaza, during the early stages of defense after the Iron Dome breach in October.
Going around Congress to ship weapons to Israel flies in the face of the helpless president narrative you’re trying to paint here.
They have, at a minimum, delayed some violence.
Also at a maximum.
We don’t really know how much worse this would be without US pressure
What pressure?
Wow. This comment says a lot about your media diet
Remember when Hilary told wall Street to “cut it out”? Is that the kind of pressure you’re talking about?
Exactly! Biden never did anything!
lol that happened 3 hours ago. I hadn’t heard about it yet.
Good. If Biden holds it until the election I’ll vote for him. I’d prefer he hold it after the election too but I suspect he’ll resume immediately following the results.
EDIT: Kinda ridiculous to say “Biden never did anything” and reference an article 3 hours old. Yeah, up until 3 hours ago he hadn’t done anything.
Yeah, you can’t answer the question.
https://www.american.edu/sis/news/20240405-biden-steps-up-pressure-on-israel.cfm
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-04-28-2024-78410c1eaf671008cd60dccc00b44ee4
Let me know if I can Google anything else for you!
https://www.american.edu/sis/news/20240405-biden-steps-up-pressure-on-israel.cfm
This is Biden pressuring Netanyahu to stop killing American employees of a celebrity chef, after Israel had already killed all 7 of them. I’m glad Biden has a line, I guess?
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-04-28-2024-78410c1eaf671008cd60dccc00b44ee4
This is a puff piece. There’s no indication of what leverage was employed.
or yours and like actually answer the question:
What pressure?
That anyone would use Trump’s non-theoretical fascism to goad a vote for Biden is offensive. These are the stakes and Biden still won’t listen. That’s on him.
No, that is one of the stakes. Single-issue voting is extremely narrow-minded, and Trump would undoubtedly make things worse in the single issue you’re emphasizing.
And yet single issue voters exist. Pretending they don’t isn’t going to work. Scolding them isn’t going to work. The Democratic party and Biden in particular need to adapt.
So you’d rather destroy American and Ukrainian lives as well as Palestinian to prove a point?
They sure would.
Would you prefer that Biden lose as long as he continues his support for genocide?
You sure would.
These people would prefer for Biden to lose, and I’m quite convinced that they don’t really care why or how. Genocide is the buzzword of the year, but if Israel and Gaza make peace tomorrow, all of these people will all have new reasons why Democratic voters should stay home or burn their ballots.
So you’d rather support genocide and lose voters than not support genocide and gain voters?
Not a binary proposition. Support Israel and lose voters, abandon Israel and lose more and different voters. Diplomacy is hard. Politics is hard.
Part of the reason it’s hard in this particular situation is bad actors pretending that geopolitics can be reduced to a soundbyte and that the problem is simple and easy.
Think you can do better? Run for president.
If Biden stops supporting Netanyahu’s genocide, will he lose your vote?
EDIT: disregard. You answered elsewhere before I noticed.
I was describing a phenomenon, not identifying myself as an example of that phenomenon. I’m voting for Biden.
Then why are you campaigning for Trump?
I’m not.
You’re campaigning for the continuation of genocide.
I understand it’s a single issue but facilitating genocide seems like a big deal dontcha think?
Of course it is. It’s only going to get worse under Trump, as will everything else.
Is it so crazy to want an option that’s better than “not a total distopia”?
I wouldn’t say that under Biden, be are living in a “total distopia”.
I would, seeing as the president full-throatedly supporting genocide is seen as perfectly fine because other guy exists.
If that’s the only issue you’re voting on, do you want the guy that tries to stop it or the guy who says “go right ahead, do more genocide!”?
If that’s the only issue you’re voting on, do you want the guy that tries to stop it
That guy’s not running.
That is correct. The options at the polls for Palestinians are bad or worse. Better is just not on the table. All the more reason that protests should happen elsewhere.
Okay, then I guess those votes aren’t on the table either. Democrats have a tough choice to make: do they want to support genocide and lose votes or do they want to stop supporting genocide and gain votes? Why are voters being attacked for exercising their democratic right to vote (or not vote) as they please, but politicians whose entire job is to gain votes are excused for not appealing to voters?
Better is just not on the table.
Congratulations.
Biden has made attempts to stop things, even if they are half assed. So the question remains, which do you support?
Biden has made attempts to stop things, even if they are half assed.
They’re no-assed.
So the question remains, which do you support?
I’m voting for Biden.
Now I have a question for you. Is Netanyahu committing genocide?
Man don’t bother. These people aren’t against genocide. They all have no problem with Ukrainian genocide or any genocide the Chinese want to carry out.
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Biden, his administration, and the bulk of the Democratic Party deserve every bit of blowback that they are going to get from their racist, bloodthirsty, gaslighting-filled stance on Gaza. The immorality of it all is bad enough, but it’s also just politically stupid given how so much of the electorate feels. I am painfully aware of the existential threat to democracy that this election poses. For Democrats to gamble US democracy itself on their desire to fuel a genocide is unforgivable. If this godforsaken country actually elects trump, it will be entirely the result of Joe Biden and the sclerotic Democratic Party leadership. We deserve much better.
You do understand that if Biden came down hard that that would result in him losing votes from independents and that he’s doing what he can with an unwinnable situation…?
Why is all the pressure to compromise or accept bad candidates focused on the left? Why aren’t you encouraging the main stream Democrats and “independents” to agree to stop aiding Israel’s genocide to prevent Trump’s winning? Why is it only progressive or the left that are required to vote against their conscience to save democracy when the center could just as easily compromise to prevent fascism?
Cuz that’s how it’s always worked. The center’s never saved anyone in their lives from anything. That’s why they’re in the center. They don’t take a stand. They don’t fight for justice or equality or plurality. They’re in the center. They’re complacent. They’re easily steered. You can’t lead by never taking a stance in the first place. You can’t want to be led by somebody who’s never first.
That’s why they’re in the center. They don’t take a stand.
The center is taking a stand right now. In favor of genocide. I didn’t know they could, either. Guess they were just looking for a cause that they firmly believe in that excites them.
No they’re not. They’re not taking a stand at all. They’re just standing back and watching impassively like they always do.
Circumventing congress to sell Netanyahu weapons is not standing back and watching impassively.
Running interference for Netanyahu at the UN isn’t standing back and watching impassively.
Voting overwhelmingly to not condition aid is not standing back and watching impassively.
Voting overwhelmingly to fund Israel while they are committing genocide is not standing back and watching impassively.
Claiming that those who oppose Netanyahu’s genocide have ties to Russia isn’t standing back and watching impassively.
Centrists have finally found an issue that they won’t immediately abandon at the very first sign of opposition.
That whistling sound you are hearing is the sound of the point you miss completely.
But why can’t I impose my own beliefs on people who have no beliefs!? It’s not fair!
Yeah of course it’s not fair, but refusing to vote for the least bad available option is insanity when the stakes are this high. These people are beyond children and will lead our entire species to its end.
of course it’s not fair, but refusing to vote for the least bad available option is insanity when the stakes are this high
That is literally the only way to get politicians to support the policies and issues that you want them to. The only thing you have that they want is your vote, they only way you will move them on an issue is if you convince them they won’t get it otherwise.
If you think the pro-genocide orange man is going to care more about your desires than Biden, I have bad news for you…
If you think the pro-genocide orange man is going to care more about your desires than Biden, I have bad news for you…
Nobody thinks that, but he is not going to make it worse. Israel is running their pogrom at the exact speed they want, Biden, and therefore the US, are not doing anything to slow them down. He gives some minor admonishment and his staff leaks to the press the he is “frustrated with Netenyahu” as if that matters. They say they will sanction some of the illegal colonizers in the West Bank, but then a couple weeks later decide not to. We continue to give Israel bombs and missiles and any other help they need in their mass murder. We are building a pier in Gaza so we can get aid past the Israeli blockade but then Biden says it will be under the control of Israel, so it will not be any more effective than any other crossing. Netenyahu wants the war to continue as it is preventing his corruption charges and the longer he can continue the better chance he has of getting his judicial and government reform in place to further consolidate his power and eventually quash any chance he will be held to account. Forcing the Democrats to actually make policy and take action to resolve the apartheid in Palestine is the only potential path in our broken political system. If you are so concerned this is going to hand Trump victory then start pressuring the centrist Dems to enforce a ceasefire now. Gain the youth vote, gain the anti genocide vote.
Independents are not automatically centrists. They are simply people who don’t identify with either party. Chasing the mythological centrist voter is how we got here.
Edited because Auto Correct really doesn’t like independents?
If he stops supporting genocide, who will you vote for?
If Biden stopped supporting genocide I would vote for Biden again.
“If I’m talking about electric vehicles and climate change, and then (a student) asks me, ‘What about all the emissions caused by the bombing of Gaza?’ I’m like, well, you know, can’t help you there,”
Maybe you need a better answer than that?
The emissions that would continue or escalate with Trump in office? He’s worse for everyone except rich white industrialists.
Trump repealed 112 environmental regulations in one term, undoing over a decade’s worth of progress.
Biden just reenacted gender discrimination law that Obama created and Trump subsequently repealed.
SCOTUS repealed Affirmative Action, overturned Roe vs. Wade, and left protest law up to the states due to the heavily conservative appointments made by Trump.
Trump’s tax cuts expired for the low and middle classes in 2022, but the larger tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations continue through 2024. Biden’s tax proposal begins in 2025, with cuts for the low and middle class, and heavily increased taxes on the wealthy and corporations.
Russia will succeed in their invasion of Ukraine if the US fails to provide support, which is Trump’s position.
Trump also said the Israel’s biggest problem is recording their atrocities, and they should just finish what they started in Gaza.
I could go all day, but you get the point. Abstain or vote third-party if you’re looking to invite this back into the White House.
Agreed, any of those are better answers than, “Welp, ya got me there.”
Just trying to help out anyone else who can’t speak to the difference in the candidates.
Well that’s the most frustrating part of the campaign. Biden is making all of the same mistakes Hillary did when it comes to motivating the base and young people. It’s like watching your grandma try to check her email. What should be a simple thing turns into an exercise in patience, but if you try to help, she gets belligerent and acts like you can’t possibly know anything she doesn’t.
Biden is bad at articulating his message. That trickles down to his volunteers. There’s never been a more important election in our lifetimes, and Biden is making unforced errors.
Look at a few of his actions compared to Trump’s, then tell me you still believe that.
Are you sure you’ve read and understood what I wrote? Because yes, I still believe it, because none of that refutes my point.
He would rather lecture than listen.
Jesus fuck I thought I was cynical but this take by CNN is like, weaponized cynicism.
I’d like us to just remember the Iran hostage crisis and the Carter/Reagan Election. Carter negotiated in good faith to try to get the US hostages released. It didn’t work because Reagan had paid the Iranians some $40 million through Earl Brian to keep the hostages until after the election. Just an hour or so after Reagan was sworn into office, the hostages were released. This tipped the scales of the election.
Why do I bring this up now? Because the situation with Israel and Gaza is bad for Biden. He knows it and seems to be trying to do something to stop it. However, it is really in Trump’s interest, and even seems to be Israel’s plan anyway, to keep the war going as long as possible. For all we know, Trump is paying off Israel to not agree to a ceasefire.
So, just keep in mind who is being hurt by the situation and who has more to gain from the war going on indefinitely.
seems to be trying to do something to stop it.
What evidence exists of this?
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Young Democrats face Gaza blowback as they try to mobilize students for Biden
Perhaps instead of trying to mobilize students to support an active genocider, they can go fuck themselves instead?
I guess the people pushing this don’t understand elections because Russia hasn’t had real ones in so long? Or is it just the new wave of idealistic anti intellectualism? ‘I have a moral cause so I don’t need to meaningfully interact with reality!’
Ooooo, “idealistic anti intellectualism” huh? Well check out the big brain on Brett, you’re a smart motherfucker!
It’s ok, Trump is on deck to take over as soon as you let him. That’s what you want, right?
‘What do you mean by “Why do you keep beating that straw man to death?”’
Oh I didn’t realize you were a lemmy.ml account. I should have just blocked you to begin with.
You won’t be missed
